Question and Answer Session
23.05.03, P. Krishna
P.K. : I am told you have deliberated over the issues that we raised
in the two talks today and it is now your job to put questions to me and
mine to respond to them. The ball is in your court!
Question :Has there been no evolution in the human consciousness ? Then
how is it we see no slavery today ?
P.K. : I think that there is a change in the manner in which the disorder
in our consciousness manifests outwardly, externally. But there is no real
deep change in human consciousness. So we find that the form of slavery
and so on which was there in the Middle Ages is not there now but still
domination continues. That crude manifestation of domination is no longer
there. Actual occupation of one country by another and colonisation has
ended but economic exploitation continues. So that's what I mean,when I
say that the outer form which the disorder takes has changed somewhat, for
the better, but inwardly the state of consciousness does not seem to have
evolved. And of course the deeper question to ask is why that is so ? I
think the reason is that all it takes to constitute an ego is memory, imagination
and the instinct of pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain.. And these are there
in all human beings. They were there 2,000 years ago, and they are there
now. Plants and animals do not have this capacity to the extent to which
we have it and therefore they are not capable of becoming egotistic. They
respond only according to their instinct, set by nature, and they are also
limited by their instinct and by their nature. Take for instance sexuality.
Sexuality is there in plants, sexuality is there in animals, sexuality is
there in man. It has come to us in evolution. But when coupled with our capacity
to imagine and remember, it has turned into lust and pornography and rape
and all kinds of manifestations, which you do not find in other species
in nature. So we need to learn what is the right use of these faculties,
which we have received in the course of biological evolution, and that needs
self-knowledge. What is the right use of these faculties and what is wrong
use of these faculties ? The faculties in themselves are not evil, but when
they are used in the wrong way, they create evil.
That is why I was saying in the morning that self-knowledge is needed by
every human being; because without it you will form the ego and then out
of the ego comes all the violence and the greed and the selfishness and so
on. How it manifests is a different matter, it is a circumstantial, cultural
matter. But we are not completely trapped in this process and we have the
possibility and capacity to free ourselves of this process. But we have not
paid attention to this learning. And of course this learning is very personal,
very individualistic; you cannot get this learning from another. Whereas
the scientific learning and knowledge is constantly expanding because it
can be transmitted and learnt quickly and you can build further. But Buddha's
son does not receive anything from the Buddha. He has to again see the truth
for himself. But since it is necessary we need to create an atmosphere in
which every human being is learning and acquiring self-knowledge. But instead
of cultivating such an enquiry, we have cultivated belief and we have cultivated
identity and pride in one's own culture and one's own belief, and so on,
which divides us. That is why the greatest amount of violence and fighting
has resulted from religion, whereas the true meaning of the word 'religion'
is that which binds, that which unites. So we have misunderstood religion.
That's why I feel that it is something that needs to be looked at in education.
Question : Why am I so afraid of the emptiness in myself?
P.K. : Isn't it because we feel comfortable with the known? We feel secure
in known surroundings, with known people. There is fear of facing the unknown.
I think that is also the fact which prevents us from discovering the truth,
because the truth is the unknown, whereas the illusion is the known. And
we have invested in the illusion, and it gives us a sense of security and
purpose and we are afraid to lose that. But this whole thing,this whole truth
can be understood by personally watching how it is happening within oneself.
So it is not a truth that is inevitable, it is not like gravitation, which
will act on you. Put a stone there or a mass here, the gravity is inevitably
going to act. But this ego-process can be understood and eliminated, because
the capacity is there in us to understand that and go beyond it. We are not
completely trapped in the past and in our conditioning.
That is why the whole question of what is moral and what is immoral, what
is right and what is wrong, arises only for man. If you say that my actions
and my decisions are completely determined by my instincts and by my past,then
I am not responsible for what I do. But we do not accept that position,
because we consider that for a human being he is not completely trapped
in his past and in his circumstances. An animal is. When a dog barks, there
is nothing else he can do but bark. But a human being decides to bark.The
biologists, of course, explain the violence in man in terms of what has
come to us in evolution from the animals. If you accept that explanation,
then there is no possibility of being non-violent. So while the explanation
of the scientists and the biologists about violence in man is true, it is
not true that we are completely trapped in that. It is possible for us to
go beyond that through our understanding. And that is the religious quest.
That is why self-knowledge is essential, more essential than knowledge of
the world.Socrates said, self-knowledge is the only knowledge. He refused
to accept any other knowledge as knowledge; he considered all other knowledge
as information. And the Buddha said that knowledge of the world is lower
knowledge, avidya, whereas true knowledge is self-knowledge. So 2,000 years
ago, when these people existed, the concern of mankind was the understanding
of the self and the cultivation of wisdom. But then we went to an era of
knowledge and a profuse expansion of knowledge; artistic knowledge, scientific
knowledge, literary knowledge and so on. And now we are going beyond knowledge
to the era of information-technology. Now nobody has time even to write
like Shakespeare or write love letters like Robert Browning; you send messages
by email!
This was expressed by the English poet Eliot in a poem. He said,
Where is the wisdom we have lost in our knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
In 2,000 years, the cycles of fate,
Take us away from God and unto dust.
Because mankind's concern has moved from wisdom to knowledge and from knowledge
to information.
Question : Is instinct a form of physical conditioning?
P.K. : I would say instinct is biological conditioning. But freedom from
conditioning does not mean the ending of conditioning. It means right relationship
with the conditioning. Sexuality is there in animals,but it does not create
the kind of problems we have created from it. We must learn from the animals!
When you put it in its right place, it does not create problems. But we
have not discovered the right place, we exploit it to serve so many ends
of our own creation.
Question : Many animals fight for their food.Is it possible that people,
who have a similar instinct, can ever get rid of this?
P.K. : We are far more immoral than the animal, because we fight for an
idea while an animal fights only for food. If you fight also only for food,
then you become equal to him ! Violence is a big affair with man, much bigger
than with animals. You know, we think we are superior to animals, but it
is not possible to prove that objectively. We are superior in the sense that
we have more ability of remembering and planning and so on than they do,
but we have not used these abilities to be kinder and more protective. We
have used these abilities to destroy, to be more cruel, therefore we are
not superior. We have more abilities, but we are not superior.
Question : Is there a point in our development as human beings, when we
can overcome this biological conditioning?
P.K. : Overcoming it not in the sense of fighting and becoming victorious
over it, but overcoming it in the sense of understanding our relationship
with it and therefore being free is certainly possible.
Question : For this should one suppress or examine one's instincts
while one still has them?
P.K. : If you directly want to achieve a result, such as freedom from sexuality,
you will end up fighting with it and suppressing it and distorting it. Some
religious people have tried that. They have tried to take vows and prevent
themselves from sexual activity. It creates distortion, they are burning
inside. Sexuality and instincts are part of nature and we must respect nature
because it exists. But we must understand our relationship with that instinct.
I will give an example. You come into contact with a person of the opposite
sex, and it produces a sexual response in your body and mind -- a sexual
desire arises. It is like any other desire. From where does the insistence
come, that my desires must be fulfilled? If I am willing to kill, I am willing
to be violent, I am willing to force another person in order to fulfil my
desires then it creates a problem. From where does that insistence come?
That insistence is the ego. The desire and the sexuality is not the ego.
If I watch it, and if it can be fulfilled without any cruelty, I am quite
happy to fulfil it. If it cannot be fulfilled, I let go. Then you are free
! So find out if all desires can be held like wishes. Wishes are innocent
things, there is no addiction to their fulfilment. In fact, nothing in itself
is evil, until the ego gets attached to it. The house does not create possessiveness.
I have become possessive in relation to the house. My wife does not create
attachment; I get attached. You take any virtue, you add the ego to it and
it will turn into a vice. You take humility and you add the ego to it and
it will become feeling small, inferior. You take love and you add the ego
to it and it will become possessiveness, attachment, jealousy and all that.
You take sexuality and add the ego to it and it will become lust and rape
and all that. So the problem is not in the external thing, the problem is
in the ego. Find out if it is possible to relate with everything without
bringing in the ego. The ego is a beggar. It is always wanting something
for itself. Stop being a beggar and just be a friend. That is all that has
to be learnt. Nothing is wrong with nature, nothing is wrong with the world.
But I create the ego, and then everything goes wrong. That is the only problem.
You know, Bin Laden is not the enemy of Bush. Bush's ego is his enemy. And
Bush is not the enemy of Bin Laden, Bin Laden's ego is his enemy. So if both
these people understood that, they would become friends and fight the common
enemy, which is the ego ! My enmity with you is based on illusion. We have
a common enemy. It applies not only to Bush and Bin Laden, it applies to
all of us when we are inimical to each other.
That is why ignorance is the cause of sorrow. Not understanding all this
is ignorance. Ignorance is the cause of sorrow, but I think you are causing
the sorrow, the circumstances are causing the sorrow. Ignorance not a lack
of knowledge, ignorance as illusion. We take something to be true when that
is not true. Or we give tremendous importance to something that is not important
then that is also illusion. And because the disorder comes from illusion,
therefore it can be ended. There is disorder only in human consciousness,
there is no disorder in nature anywhere. Even the storms, the cyclones,
the earthquakes are not disorder; there is no ego in them because there
is no intention to destroy you. They are merely following the laws, which
are the order of nature. And so the animal just follows its instinct, which
is the order of nature. And that order is operating in our body, too. I
do nothing to make the body work, it just works on its own. But we have
not learned how to function with a consciousness that is in order. That learning,
that wisdom is the religious quest.
Long ago, Socrates pointed out that there is only one virtue, and that
is this state of order in consciousness. All virtues are then simply branches
from that root. We respect these sages, but we have not investigated what
they mean.
Question : Is it possible in a society like ours, in which we are all so
conditioned, to bring up children without conditioning them?
P.K. : I think all human beings are conditioned. You cannot avoid conditioning,
because that is just memory. Memory functions involuntarily. But I can be
aware of my conditioning and I need not give tremendous importance to it.
Conditioning is the past. I am the result of the past. The biological past
of millions of years, the cultural past of a few thousand years, and the
psychological past from my birth till today. All that is stored in memory,
I cannot erase it; it is something that exists. But I can learn about it,
because from there my thoughts and feelings arise and I can watch these operating
in my consciousness. They come up in relationships and therefore I can watch
what is going on and learn about my conditioning, without taking sides with
it, without calling it a shame or getting attached to it. We do not need
to get rid of all our conditioning. We need to get rid of only that which
is false and which creates disorder or problems in life. Otherwise it is
like the colour of our skin, you don't have to change it. It is a part of
you.But if you start saying this is the most beautiful skin in the world,
you create a problem ! There is such a thing as one's own personality. We
need to respect that too; that is what this chap (pointing to himself) is.
There is no reason to fight this chap. There is nothing very great about
this chap also, he is just one of the several chaps developing and growing
in this world ! You know, all life starts with a single cell with a programme,
and it develops according to that programme and it ends. That is true of
the tree, that is true of you, me, that's true of the dog around the corner.
I can assure you that a hundred years later, some other people will be sitting
here and listening to lectures ! But while we exist we make such a big hullaballoo
about it. It is just an opportunity to see this world and learn about ourselves,
if you want to. Otherwise, live like that tree, but don't fight! There is
a poem written several hundred years ago by a poet in India. He said, O man,
learn from the trees. When somebody cuts off a branch the tree does not hit
back. When somebody throws stones at them, they yield fruit in exchange.
They take the hot sun on their heads and provide shade to the weary traveller.
They give the perfume of their flowers without asking whether you deserve
it or not. O man, learn from the trees ! When they are crowded in the forest,
they do not fight with each other, they adjust to each other and share the
sunshine. That is what life would be like if we had no egos ! We have a bigger
problem than trees and animals.Nature has completely determined life for
them. We have been granted some choice, but we are misusing the choice !
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